Single Motherhood by Choice: Interview with Lori Wear

This episode is for mothers, alterna-mothers, the motherhood curious, and anyone needing a booster shot to own their motherhood dreams.

Lori Wear is a friend, colleague, and sister in arms. She's a recovering fine jewelry maker, now a powerful coach. She's a builder of villages  and her leadership is characterized by curiosity, humor, peer support, and no bullshit. She is also a mother of two.
Speaking with Lori makes me feel like a facet of the same gemstone. I coach women on their motherhood possibilities and she powerfully shows up as one of the possible outcomes: creating motherhood on her own terms and without a partner.

Lori is an SMC -- SINGLE MOTHER BY CHOICE.

Remember that acronym.
As a curator and caretaker for this community Lori has some visions for creating easier passage on this voyage. 

Be ready to:

• Challenge the status quo and legitimize a modern version of family
• Laugh a LOT
• Get seduced by the pirate life
• Get spiritual about motherhood
• Get your beer/life/bio clock goggles blown off your face and into clear vision 
• Hear how a vulnerable story can blow you away with empowerment
• Hear what creating space for motherhood really entails
• Hear the word asshat as it relates to parenting.

Lori Wear is currently building her community and can be reached through https://www.facebook.com/groups/smclifestyleredefined

Transcript

0:00

You know, those boxes on forms that we all have to tick off over and over again. And I'm sure that at one time or another you're like, but I don't belong to any of these boxes. Well, today's guest Lori Weir has a mission and it has to do with changing the census and how we're counted to better reflect our current reality. Are you intrigued? Well, you don't want to miss a single mother by choice Lori, Wear and our topic today, creating space for motherhood on your own terms. Hey, have you ever felt other because you're not a mother or wonder why motherhood and otherhood are the only defined options for womanhood? Want to feel whole, no matter the fruit of your womb? Yeah, me too. It's time for a new paradigm. Are you ready? Welcome to ladies like us. I'm your host, Linda Leising. Join me as we swap those narrow definitions with real diverse and inclusive stories that dig into the full spectrum of mothering mojo, including motherhood missed, motherhood, dissed. We're going to coach a little, empower a lot, ask the good questions and massively celebrate life choices. So whether you're childless motherhood, curious, ambivalent child-free or a self-defined a mother of any kind, this space is for you. Sound good? Let's do it.

Linda: 1:38

I want to welcome Lori, where my friend, colleague, and sister in arms, she's a recovering fine jewelry maker. Now a powerful coach. She's a community creator and leader, and her leadership is characterized by curiosity, humor, peer support, and no bullshit. Laurie is also a mother of two. She is an SMC single mother by choice. Remember that acronym ladies SMC. Laurie is a curator and caretaker for this community and she has some visions for the future, which I'm excited to dig into. Laurie, it feels like we're facet to the same gemstone. I coach women on their motherhood possibilities and you are one of the possible outcomes, creating motherhood on your own terms without a partner. Welcome. And we can't wait to hear your story.

Lori: 2:28

Thank you, Linda, for having me as a guest on your show. And I just love that you used facets of the same gem because I'm excited that we're sharing the same lights today with some of our facets. So thank you for having me. Yes,

Linda: 2:42

absolutely. I am so, so excited to dig into this. You're just someone who, identified what you wanted from motherhood and you planned it out and you created it. How amazing is that?

Lori: 2:56

It's pretty phenomenal to you live in the walk and the talk and live in the path. Yeah. It's an amazing journey. Yeah.

Linda: 3:03

Yeah. So, I kind of see it as, you have an early chapter, like a, first chapter then a second, the Genesis. I love it. So take us to the beginning and, uh,

Lori: 3:19

start us off. Okay. All right. Well, um, we didn't really talk about this, but I never really had a maternal instinct to bear children. It just didn't exist for me. But what did exist was. This really amazing human biology, experiment. Science experiment. Like you create this human and you experienced your body shifting its vehicle into a new, like, it's like a clock with the wheels. And all of a sudden they shift their performance and the engine runs differently. And just that whole experience of caring and birthing, um, was an amazing science experiments as well, leading into like having the children and seeing them as these little tiny boats with these little sails and how you can blow the winds into the sails in and guide them as they navigate through the waters of life. And so really kind of started with, I want to have children as like this really awesome science experiment. And it's like, you know, a rollercoaster at the amusement park where. Um, there's all these different rides that people ride, but the rollercoaster of Parenthood is a bunch of people waiting in line to get on board. And then they're riding the rollercoaster and, you know, you got some pukers on there and you get some people have a great time and get people that are scared and then you see the people get off and you get some more people puking in the trash can at the, at the end of the ride, but then you see a lot of really amazing. You know, experiences coming off of it. And I thought, you know, whatever, I want to ride that ride. And so then when I was 30, so I was married, um, I, uh, was married for seven years, uh, with Brian for 11. And unfortunately that marriage ended when I was 32. And, uh, he's an alcoholic definitely 16 years later now, uh, sadly he's not found his path, but that does reinforce. I made the right decision at the time for myself. So I am happy. I made that hard decision

Linda: 5:22

considered kids with him or was

Lori: 5:25

that okay? Yeah. And we actually have some fertility challenges on his side from the testing, which was hard for him. So like we had to kind of, I didn't push too hard with it, you know? So anyway, um, as the recovering jeweler, which I love that term gave me, uh, I've been making jewelry for 32 years this year, but at the time, you know, is 32. So that would make it like maybe 16 years on my path, a master in my craft. I was also definitely an observer of the different kinds of family units and clientele that would come in through the store that I would work with. And it was this big observer that would like ask a lot of questions of my clients. They didn't even know I was like interviewing them, but I noticed a pattern by the time I was 32 of women with her biological clock ticking in their thirties. And they're like, You know, forcing the lenses to make a man look like the right fit. And then they'd come see me and I'd make their wedding rings. And I get to see how their dynamics were and how their relationships evolved over time. And just seeing, observing that there was this pattern that was really heavy of women forcing those lenses to make the guy look right, so they could land the dude and then make the babies. And in the play out of that, I would see that, uh, once they had the child, then those lenses would come off and all of a sudden they would see him differently. And they'd be like, you've got to change this, this and this, and this is wrong. And this is bad. And the whole time, the guy's like, I don't even understand what's going on. Like, I'm still the same dude. You married, but now I'm wrong. And so the plan would either be they'd stay married, but it was lowered expectations. Which is to me, children are they learn by osmosis. And so they're going to be absorbing this as a role model for relationships in marriage, which kind of made me sad. And, um, and then the other playout is divorced. And now the kids live in underneath two roofs with two different households, two different sets of rules. You know, everybody becomes a part-time parent. And I just thought, okay,at 32, I've seen enough to understand my clock's going to tick just like these other girls. Yeah. I don't want to see that kind of play out. They both look like losing situations.. Yeah.

Linda: 7:56

can I just pause and just say, um, you know, for one, I love your language. Um, this idea of the, the lenses just gives us all like a really easy way to understand exactly what you're talking about. And, we should do an episode on dating as you try to create Parenthood. Because, I think that that is something for my pre mothers, right. People who are still in the game and still figuring out like how they want it to play out. That's such a powerful thing to think about, right? Like what, how are you forcing someone to fit those lenses? Just because you wish it to be. So you're panicked about time and, you know, et cetera, et cetera. Um,

Lori: 8:32

Yeah, that was a journey all on its own ladies, because let me tell you in this story, you'll learn that the clock did tick one year and I made some poor choices. Listen to Auntie Lori, Ladies! Yeah, yeah. What a chapter. Yeah. I look forward to talking about that. Yeah. So I was 32. I felt like I had done enough observations and I also knew within myself like that, damn, clock's going to tick. I better set some stakes in the ground for myself, like make some agreements so that, uh, when I would go forth and push that reset button and look for a new dude at 32, which was not what I signed up for, um, that I would be able to like remove the chances of those lenses getting on my eyes, you know, I didn't want to get trapped in it. So I, put the stake in the ground with myself that. Um, I'm going to enjoy my life and I'm going to date and have relationships and I'm going to just enjoy myself. And if I meet the right dude, then great, we'll go on that journey together. But if not, then when I hit my 40th birthday, I'm going to check into a clinic and, uh, and be fine with it. And so I was very, very comfortable at 32. That was kind of like an anchor for me, uh, with coping, with divorce, you know, wanting to have my biology experiment, getting yanked from my grasp. And so, yeah, so I, I very, I very much enjoyed like a lot of, uh, A lot of freedom, you know, I really, I had three really great relationships. Uh, none of them ended up being the right fit, uh, great people, but you know, if it's not a fit, it's not a fit. And I was cool with moving on, you know, and then I hit my, uh, 37th year. So five years later, uh, the economy crash and price of gold went through the roof. Oh my God. And it became like, I felt like I was going to have to choose between being the mother that I wanted to be for my children or choose this business as it is because with no crystal ball, you don't know when. You know, the economy is going to return and a luxury product. Like high-end jewelry is going to be something that would continue and give me space to have children. So, you know, I got in a fight with God over like a cigar and a glass of wine on my back porch. And I was like, I didn't even want this store, but he gave it to me. Uh, and, I believe in following in the alignment with the path and it just shook out that, like in the argument I started meditating on like, all I ever wanted to do was work one-on-one with clients. It's all about the relationships and making the jewelry and, you know, I didn't do it cause I didn't have the clientele and then it hit me. Oh my God, I have 10,000 clients. I can totally close the store. Work privately by appointment and have space to be as close to an at-home mom as possible, like have a nanny in the other room, but I can actually engage with their milestones and still be like as much a stay at home mom that is a functioning artist simultaneously. So I closed my store at 37 years old. We were the best. I was voted best jeweler in Napa for six out of the seven years, I was open and it was a phenomenal shift and I took a year off and decided I'm not going to work for a year and I'll live in poverty and that's fine. And I'm really going to rewire my brain to start shifting the sales of my own pirate ship to go towards the Island of Parenthood. Uh, still enjoyed. I had one more relationship, but I hit 39. And I realized, you know what, I'm not going to place bets on a horse in 12 months. I'm still not ready. I'm scared. I'm really, so I'm going to take this year and I'm just going to create a bucket list of all the shit I want to do before I, before I know I'm going to be consumed with like a tiny little bubble head that I'm going to grow. So I literally decided we're calling off all relationships. We're just going to like actually do whatever we want to do. And the safe way ladies safe sex. And then I just did all the little bucket list, things that I thought, you know, for a while, my hands will be tied up. And, um, and on my 40th birthday, the day before I went to my clinic for the first time And I jumped that it was amazing, like driving down the freeway going to Orinda and I'm like, yeah, I'm the grownup doing this? What the fuck am I thinking? Sorry, can I cuss? Like, you know, there's either a pair of shoes in the pack or there's not, but we're jumping and we're going to enjoy the ride. We're just, all we have to do is drive forward. This concept in that started at 32 and really becoming like, okay, we're now we're now putting the shoes on and we're starting to step forward. And I should mention that I actually went back to like interviewing and asking questions that people, my client base has been like this amazing powerhouse where from 32. To 40, I have these really powerful conversations with different women of different ages that had children in their forties to see what that experience would look like, which helped me set up my strategy for success. By the time I did have my children met a woman, Christina, that, I actually was friends with her husband. They used to live on the other side of the playground in my backyard, and she got pregnant accidentally at 39 years old, had her baby at 40, in LA. And then when her baby hit two, she met Jeffie. And, at the point that I was talking to her, they'd been married for like over 25 years, and she really shared about this special bond that they have, and how he could come in as a role model paternal, but not the father and how he contributed to the relationship about bringing. But the real magic was she's like, here's the deal when you're a single mom and it's your kid? Well, it's kind of like owning a corporation and you're the 51% shareholder, so he can collaborate and you guys worked together, but really at the end of the day, your way will be like the voting factor if it comes to a head. And I just thought, wow, that's really powerful for a mother to have. Yeah, that ability to say, Hey, you know, because I think, I don't know for myself, I really value a consistent childhood with its own idiosyncrasies and imperfections but it's like a consistent dynamic versus two separated ones. So that's where it kind of helped me realize that, I can have a guy and have a relationship and I hope that it'll be successful when that happens. That really at the end of the day, my children will have an upbringing under one roof, which is really powerful. It also means it's 24 seven ladies and it's 24 seven. So, you can't just leave the kids with the husband or the way or the whatever and go escape. You really have to strategize. How do you get my meantime? So that was something that was as well and like dating. Like I want a date and I was ready when like when COVID hit

Linda: 16:11

that's this chapter right now. I love that. Um, that would be very appealing to me. So yeah, like kudos to you for figuring that out and also just, 32 to 40, I mean, God, those are such powerful years. And you know, when I was in New York, in my early thirties, seeing all this stuff about, say egg freezing and egg donation. Right. And it was like a new concept at the time. And I'm like, huh. And then even then it's like, Oh, your 32 year old eggs are kind of old at this point. You know, according to the people that want to buy the quality eggs. Right. Not necessarily if I was going to freeze my own, but it just gave me pause. I'm like, Oh, I really need to be thinking about this right now. Right. And so, kudos to you for aligning with that desire. That early a and B like not losing sight of it, like, you know, midst the relationships and things like that. Making almost like that deal with yourself. And I think that that allowed you to really enjoy those years instead of just, you know, like tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, right? Like, you're like, okay, what's it like to like, enjoy now versus constantly scanning the environment for like, who's my daddy?

Lori: 17:20

Yeah. Then you're forcing those lenses and all of a sudden, you know, and it's just so important to remove whatever barriers are there for you. Like for me, my barrier was I had observed and witnessed naturally the play outs of like. Couples that had midlife marriages and, as an observer, but then also as an interviewer because, I was on this mission of like, Hey, because I had centered myself around enjoy life and have relationships and see what happens and letting it go. I removed those lenses. I also simultaneously had the lenses set or when I'm 40, I want to be queued up to be able to actually play this out and the way that, and I need to remove the barriers of fear, like, what are the, what are the big things I worry about? And that's what I'm going to share with these women that I talked to and see what they say, you know, like mine was, um, two things was will I have enough energy in my forties to be able to chase my children on the playground. You know, because I don't want to dance with my children. I want to run with my children, but am I going to be too old! I don't know! And then the other one is, is like, I'm really lousy at taking care of myself when I'm sick. You know, I used to be like, okay, we know the emo we've saved up a Q1, Netflix of all those like emotional heavy Schindler's list, style movies, but you don't want to watch on it. And so I had the, I'd always have those queued up. I would drag myself on DayQuil or NyQuil and I would just zombie out, watch the movies and just. Zombie out until I felt better. And you can't do that when you have a kid let alone twins. So I was like worried about when I'm going to be sick and will I have enough energy to chase my kids? Yeah. And so those were the two big questions that I asked women to find out what was going on.

Linda: 19:20

Yeah, no, that's, that's super valuable. Also I'm, I'm thinking about, your setup, right? Like you were open to the idea of like, maybe you might end up meeting a great guy and still having that whole like family thing. Yeah. Yeah. Because

Lori: 19:33

let me tell you who wants to do it alone until you're doing it, and then it's kind of rock star

Linda: 19:40

I'm thinking, is that when you had the set up, it's one thing to feel like, um, we're creating some kind of insurance, towards the future. Right. I know some women who, their eggs are frozen and

Lori: 19:48

nothing coming more and more women are doing it. And I think it's fantastic. Cause I have things to talk about that too, whatever. Yeah, yeah,

Linda: 19:54

no, we're going to do it. Um, but being proactive about motherhood, right. That's essentially what I'm talking about, but also to consider that that is I'm sure maybe that's not the first preference, but it doesn't mean like it's a less- than experience of motherhood. You know what I mean? Like you are literally still creating motherhood and doing it on your own terms. So it just, it sounds like such an empowered way to show up and I'm in awe of you

Lori: 20:19

again, there's either a parachute in the pack and there's not, but I'm definitely one of those that'll jump off the cliff. Like the ride will be with the ride will be, and the likelihood is pretty good. It's packed. Well, it's going to be fine. I haven't, I haven't gone for splat like the Wiley coyote yet.

Linda: 20:35

So what was it about you that was able to get so clear on motherhood early on and create space for it?

Lori: 20:43

Um, really it's has more to do with my philosophy about my journey on the planet. I mean, I pray for reincarnation because I think this is a really amazing fly place. I'd like to return many, many times. Um, and so if I believe in that, then, you know, I've been here many times before, but sadly I can't remember any of that.

Linda: 21:04

I know I get so bummed out. Totally.

Lori: 21:07

Yeah. But here's my philosophy. Like you can't take anything with you when you go, but what you can take is your experiences and God gave us a ticket to ride the amusement park of earth before a time. And so again, just looking at it through the lenses of, there's like so many different rides to ride on this planet literally and figuratively. And it just really made sense that on my journey, like. I even did the math. It's like, all right, first, 20 years it's to the parents, you know, they birthed you, they raise you, they kick you out and fly, and then you make your own little babies. Well, that's about 20 core years that you give up and, you know, should you be blessed to live, to be 80? And my family y'all died early to mid seventies, so I'm like 80, cause I'm optimistic, but really I'm going for the century. If you do the math and you take out the first 20 goes to your upbringing, another 20 for your set of kids, you have like 60 years left that are all yours and the gifts and benefits and potential of having these children that will continue in those other years. I mean, I'd get to be a grandma, hopefully. I get to continue to be with them on their journey. Whenever they want me or need me. And when I need to go to the old folks home, they'll actually pack up all my shit and sell it for me. And then it'll put me in the home and then they'll come visit me maybe. I don't know, that's the joke kind of way I looked at it is it's really just a fraction of the calendar of life, but look at all of the potential and the beauty and the opportunities that can enrich my journey, you know, or for the human experience.

Linda: 22:48

Fraction of the calendar of life. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's so interesting, right. Because, as a non mother, I've, I've definitely aware of how the passage of time feels a little differently. Because you don't transform through a specific doorway, like the way motherhood opens that up. Right. So it becomes a little bit like, huh. You know, like what season am I in right now? You know? Um, for me, like I think opening up into this coaching space and really, I think in my way, aligning with what motherhood is, right. As far as, Not coaxing it out, but just, allowing a space to really dig in and talk about it and appreciate it and appreciate, like why it was missed, say or what else it needs, to happen in order to create it. Um, yeah, I love playing in this space, but it is interesting because to your point, like, I know I'm like pretty soon, how many years before I would be like, I could be a grandmother, like that kind of age. And then it's like, but on that, so then what, you know, so here's a question for you. Um, had you ever considered, like when you were doing the 40 and like this is my plan and whatever, like if it didn't happen naturally, did you have like a plan B? Like will you consider adopting? Yeah. No.

Lori: 24:07

All right. So like having a relationship with the universe, um, I live by some little guideline rules, uh, that have governed my ship through the unchartered waters of life as the pirate that you know me to be

Linda: 24:22

her,

Lori: 24:25

just to let you know, I let Linda know my analogy is I am a pirate on a Solon ship, uh, made out of wood. Perfectly imperfect. And it has a wooden rodeo circus on board. So it is a lot of fun. Uh, you never know where we're going.

Linda: 24:39

My pirate ship was not as well, fleshed out ladies, but,

Lori: 24:43

well, don't worry. I've actually engineering my children and supporting them to design their own ships. And one of them is going to build a multimillion dollar yacht with a granny unit on it. And then we're going to, like, my pirate ship will be so small. It will just be like, you know, a little dinghy on the side that I can go visit whenever I need an escape, you know, lifestyles of the rich and famous. Yeah. So for me, the two rules with the universe are when the path has flow to it, then you're in alignment with your purpose and what the universe has intended for you. Uh, when there's roadblocks and hurdles. Well, that's the point where the universe is saying, Hey man, I got better plans for you. It's time to shift. So, I did have spiritual concerns about whether I was forcing the universe's intentions, by going down this fertility road, uh, because you know, traditionally you wanna like have two people. That's having it together. And here I am looking at a non-traditional route. Is this non-traditional route in conflict? With those two, like rules that govern my sails? And so I did put some stakes in the ground for myself, some agreements like, uh, we're going to have a specific budget. Uh, and the budget was designed through the Lotus project where I custom designed, uh, silver Lotus flowers with the Spinella Juul in it and sold those for 150 bucks a pop. And, and I contributed about$12,000, I think, uh, that I cashed out some goals and we came up with a 52, it became a$52,000 budget. And so, okay. So that's a stake in the ground. We're not going to go beyond the budget. Uh, the other is that, uh, so when we run out of money, then it's the fate telling me, like I have a different path, a different course, and I'll be at peace with that. Uh, another one was that, um, I needed it to be my age. Like, you know, 40 years old, I'm late in the game, but I'm early in the late game. Uh, and guess what, ladies, that's another topic, uh, for every one successful IVF lady that you see with babies in their forties. There's two women that haven't talked about. It that's been 50 to a hundred thousand dollars and did not get pay dirt. So that's a hard thing that I didn't realize until I checked in to the clinic. And it was a very brutal reality. Uh, but so I did make that rule with myself. If it can't be my eggs, then I'd be pushing the walls to the universe. So, you know, we'll make that agreement stake in the ground. The plan B was, if I couldn't get pregnant. Well, I just changed my whole freaking life to create space for this shit. And I closed my retail store. That was very successful in the time period, even though the economy crashed and the numbers went down, it's like, you know, that's seven years of, So I thought, well, how can I cope with that? Okay. Well, if I can't get pregnant and God has a different path for me, then what I'm going to do is I'm going to sell everything I own and I'm going to become a nomad and I'm going to actually just become a barista at a different coffee shop in different places, all over the world. And I'll just rent a cot and tiny room, and I'm just going to live this life of adventure and travel and, um, And so that was my plan B. I was seriously going to be like, all right, I guess I'm going to be a nomad and I'm going to stay for maybe months, maybe six months, maybe two years. Cause you know, I mean after that, like whatever man. And so those were my stakes in the ground and, Interestingly enough, I broke one of those steaks. Um, I broke the embryo steak. I, talked a lot about it with the universe. I've even shared with friends. It was very heavy on my heart. As I was going on my journey to fertility about a year and a half in, um, you know, I ran out of most of that budget. I had$11,500 left and I'm like, shit, my eggs, are starting to prove that they're not so hot. And by the time you do egg donation, well, then I got that spiritual issue, but let's just kind of look at it. Well, maybe we're meant to just do artificial insemination and just blow it out in six more IUI's. But then. This strange thing happens. And when things happen in threes, I'm kind of a three ring girl. Um, I had a client tell me about this woman that was pregnant with twins and she was in her forties and she lived here in Napa. And I was like, Oh, that's interesting. But you know, they probably don't do those guarantees only get 11, five left in. If you're over 40, nobody gives you these, like you get X amount of tries or you get your money back or you get X amount of tries and you can go another loop. Um, yeah. So you're a reporter you're screwed. You don't get, unless, unless I found the window. So I get this referral to that. There's this woman floating around town, that's pregnant with twins. And, um, and then I get a second client that tells me about her and she's a nurse and I'm like, okay. So two people are telling about this woman, I'm curious, but you know, she's probably not got one of those guarantee things. I don't know. Then the universe sends me a referral client that comes into my workshop and she owns a cryo tank maintenance lab. Okay for fertility clinics and she knows this pregnant woman in town and I'm like, alright, okay. Okay. A lot of arrows. Yeah. I got to at least meet this lady. I mean, I have to. And so I met her for lunch and she's this big and tall, strong woman retired Vet. She, she got herself knocked up it, I think she was 45, had him at 46 and I was totally shocked. And, so she did find a clinic that does a program for three tries at the time. It was 12 five. I think it's about 15 five now three tries or your money back for you can roll it over and it can be up to 52 years old. Really 52, huh? Uh, and I mean, you have to fit like a certain BMI. I was like, okay, I think I need to like really look at this. Like, is the universe letting me know that this is the path. I mean, if I have three people bring me to her and then it ends up being that it's three tries for 12, five, I have$11,500 left. But yeah, that means I broke another stake. I went a thousand dollars above budget ladies. Um, but you know, you're so close.I can come up with a grand!. I can do this. Uh, so yeah, so I was like, okay, like, let's go visit this clinic. Oh. And by the way, here was the caveat. That was the conflict is it's embryo donation. So I was going to be having to give up that stake in the ground of like, okay, I am, I feel like the universe is giving me permission to let go of the concepts that's fixed. That's my thoughts. And in open up to know this, this might be your path. And so, I went to the clinic and, you know, I learned a lot about it. I mean, if you're going embryo donation, you're getting like young eggs and young sperm. And when you're pregnant with young eggs and sperm embryos, uh, you're no longer referred to as a geriatric mom, because it's not about your body. It's about the eggs. So I didn't have to go through all kinds of testing that other people had to go through it. He's never called it yet.

Linda: 32:28

I mean, that's like after 35, right? I think that

Lori: 32:34

34 35. Yeah. That wasn't even on the map. It wasn't even on the map. So, um, yeah, I had my stakes in the ground, but you know, on the journey and the hats, you know, um, I opened myself up and, and I thank God that I did because Carl and angel are my five and a half year old twins and it's. I mean, there is no separation or difference between me and them. And early on in the Lotus project, when I made the necklaces, I did have other women come to me and tell me how, how proud they were of me to be vulnerable and open to the public about my journey and how, and I heard fertility story after fertility story and how they had to keep it quiet, you know, because they were worried about work and job security or their husbands had an ego and insecurity. And so to protect him, she played small, but then it was a painful, quiet prison of hell because it's a rollercoaster ladies. I mean, there's bad days, bad times. And then it's like, hurry up and then wait. And it's it's crazy coaster. Yeah. And so, uh, one of the women confided in me until we, that she had to do egg donation with her husband and she, and this was early in the journey and she's like, I hope you don't have to go down this road, but if you do, I just want to be that voice in your head that my son is no different. I mean, he grew in my body. I don't, I don't feel any detachment. I don't feel like, but I'm not all him, you know, or I'm not in him. And, and so her voice had run through in my head when I was making that decision. And then also my other friend, who's an SMC, single mothers by choice. She actually, congratulated me on being a mother in my first steps, like when I was calling her and I was like, I'm not a mom yet. I don't even know if I'm going to get pregnant. And she's like, no, no, you don't realize every single decision you make. Starting even with this conversation, they're all choices and decisions you're making for your child. So you are using your mother right now in this conversation. So

Linda: 34:44

I love that. I love that. Yes,

Lori: 34:49

yes, yes. Yeah. Well, and it was hard to wrap my head around, you know, at the beginning of the journey and my 39th year when I was talking to her. But by the time I hit that crossroad with the conversation with the universe, It's like the one with the egg donation popped into my brain. And then the other friends that shared with me, you are a mother, these are the choices. I'm like, Oh my God, I'm being selfish at this stage wanting to use my own eggs. It's my ego. But the reality is I want my children to have the healthiest vessel possible to carry their spirits through this life and this journey and understanding that there would be chromosomal compromises that I'd be potentially putting, because my ego was getting in the way. Well, once I realized that I'm like, this is, this is the path the universe has created space. For this to happen. And as a result had a fantastic worry-free pregnancy ladies. Oh no. No geriatric mommy here. I trusted that if there were any things that came up in their biology, well, then that was definitely a part of my journey and their journey to, by nature. And that I could accept that I could accept that. I realized that I don't know how well I would have been able to accept myself for, using my own eggs where I, you know, it wasn't honoring me wanting them to have, and it became my mother choice. It became my mother. No, I

Linda: 36:19

love your sort of your intentionality. And yet you knew how to loosen your grip. And let the universe also like usher in that help. So that's a, That's a high conscious road. My friend.

Lori: 36:33

Well, it's a relationship. Like, I always say, God, doesn't give handouts. He gives a hand up, you've got to do the work. You've got to reach for what you want. And he will reach down and grab your hands and he will pull you towards your destination every single time. And so to me, I've never looked at it like, Oh, I'm going to pray to God and ask him for the things I want. And he will just provide, it's like, no, it's a relationship. We're in a relationship. Yeah.

Linda: 37:02

Yeah. Is anyone else you're feeling really, really motivated right now? Just filled with the Holy Spirit!

Lori: 37:12

Sorry. I know spirituality is hard for people, but there's no beginning or end for me. It is the infinity and I can't help it say all of it comes from that as a base. And I don't go to church on Sundays. No, we're

Linda: 37:25

all about spirituality here. And then, like I said, with it's quantum motherhood, like for me, that moment of your friend identifying that, you already are in a motherhood space, right. Spiritually, you are like, you are talking to your child to be, just like when we talked about, like the other times here on this planet, right. Like, I know I've been a mother before. Like I'm not in this moment, but like, I, I'm only bummed out that I don't remember it, but I have some residue inside that I can totally feel into that space. Right. So, it's, it's interesting to think, like, what's the purpose of, of not having it in this life. Right. Like, you know, because there's is a purpose to everything. Like, what am I learning? So I, I love that you. We're about giving yourself that transformative aspect. Like, what do you want to experience you early on were able to decide that you wanted to experience motherhood. The, how, right. Like you were open enough to, you had some parameters and that guided you. And I think it was super important for you to put some blind, not blinders, but just like, stuff that wasn't part of your plan. You let it out of sight so that you could stay on course. But once you got into yeah, you put the hand up and it was pulling you in, in a certain direction and you heated the cues. That's when it, all those doors opened up. So, I mean, yeah, it's an inspiring journey, but I'm, I'm so happy that you were able to be so conscious about your journey.

Lori: 38:49

So thank you. Yeah. It's still sometimes like, Oh my God, I'm a mom and I have a boy and a girl and they're five and a half years old. Oh my God. They got their school pictures yesterday.

Linda: 39:05

Oh,

Lori: 39:08

it's their first real school picture.

Linda: 39:13

Oh

Lori: 39:13

my God. Like it's like seeing my five and a half year old self in their eyes with that energy of a five-year-old it's like. Oh, my God, you can't bottle it and keep it. But look, I got a picture that has it.

Linda: 39:29

Like we're still being cute at that age now,

Lori: 39:33

which is baby Vegas for the record, probably because their embryo donation,

Linda: 39:45

you know, what I love this conversation is, um, it's like, when we think about the playing field of creating motherhood, like you have all these parts of your journey, right? Like, I was asking about your plan B and I was almost like, Oh dude, do you ever consider like, adoption? Right? So it's like on one hand, like you adopted an embryo, but then like fused it with your own body. And it's like, now, you know what I mean? And like spiritually, with you. And I just think it's, it's so interesting because the, the medical side, the woo side, the conviction side. And, and like, literally you reorganized your life in order to

Lori: 40:19

I created space.

Linda: 40:21

Well, yeah. You know, we think about like, Oh, it'd be so cute when, mommy and me matching outfits, but we don't think about how to juggle this and coordinate that, or, like needing more space in your apartment. Like, we don't really align with it.

Lori: 40:34

Sometimes people just jump. They're just like, all right, let's jump. But I'm like for sure, but I want to,

Linda: 40:42

And you know how, like when you're younger, you, you almost don't even know. Well, you don't know what you don't know. So like leaping towards, it might almost be easier, but I think sometimes we get a little older and then we freak ourselves out, not going to have enough money, not going to have enough X, Y, and Z, and forgetting what it really takes to just simply nurture, a child. And so I think a lot of people unfortunately talk themselves out of it too. Almost like they feel like they know too much and they freak themselves out about, but they're not really maybe allowing themselves to think about, well, what, what really is necessary, right? Like what, what is actually needed

Lori: 41:16

here? I mean, ignorance is bliss in your twenties. By the time you get to your thirties, you have a pretty solid idea about what your reality is. And so it would be really easy to self-sabotage in your later years. Whereas in your younger years, it's just like, Oh, that happened. This is what you do. You get married, buy a house, make babies. Yeah, sure. But in your thirties and even forties is like, Oh no, man, I know enough to be dangerous. So you're bringing up another inspiration though with Brianne because, um, uh, I've been self-employed since I was 22, at 22 years old, I was a journeyman as a jeweler and traveled to California and decided, you know, I'd have better opportunities to be creative here than Indiana. No, they're not going back at her

Linda: 42:05

Indiana. Yeah.

Lori: 42:07

So anyway, Rayann was my very first employee and she was 19 years old at the time and very responsible, uh, self-sufficient super quirky and carried her cat in her backpack to work every day, which is terming. Uh, but she had her first sexual experience. Like she had, she was a Virgin and she had her first sexual experience with the guy, next to some Lake with some park, you know, ghetto teenage style. And, uh, she comes to me the next day and she was like, Oh my God. Oh my God, I think I might be pregnant. And I'm like, what? And I was like, Oh honey, it's your first time. The chances are so slim. And she's like, yeah, but you don't understand like is a little wanker. It was too small for the slip on it is looked off. And so she's like, I'm totally worried. I was like, ah, you know, I mean, the chances are, I mean, you did the best. No, she was knocked up, totally knocked up. And I remember like I shared studio with another artist and he was in his forties and he was like, you got up or you got up or you got a board like this, or you're too young. You're not responsible. You're too. You carry a cat in your backpack. You are just not there, girl. And I just looked at him and I said, honey, number one, you got to step back. That is that's. Those are very strong words. Whenever somebody has to make these kinds of decisions to keep or let go or adopt or whatever. And I was like, you know what? She's shown that she's very responsible. Yes, she's quirky. But that means she'll be a creative mother and you know, like. She will be responsible for this child. The sun will come up and rise and then it'll set and then the moon will come up and darkness will be in everybody's leaves. And then like the sands of time, these are the days of our lives. The world will move forward. This child would live, she will raise this child. It's not going to be perfect, but you know what it's going to be. It's going to be great. She's going to be fine. And, um, and she had that baby and she, I think she's got four kids now and flipped probably five years ago or something. She's an artist has her own business, very successful, um, a match she's, uh, the kind key she makes this creative line of children's clothing high-end thing. Oh my God. And testing. And we still joke about. That time period when all of that happened. But I mean, she played back in my head and I'm like, okay, negative voice saying, you can't pull this off. It's like, you've got a lot more than ran and look, she did it, she's done it four times. And so I have a home, I have a business, I have a Mastercraft that I have a career and I have everything in the contents of the home. Really. I have everything I need and yeah, I'm going to be winging it like I'm 19 years old, except for looking all the bad ass Surrey that surrounds me, that I built in the meantime I can totally set up for this. Yeah.

Linda: 45:03

Recognizing how well resourced you are. Like that's that's major. Yeah. And Ram I love that. Thanks for sharing your

Lori: 45:12

story. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, all those things helped. Um, I mean it really like coaching perspective. It's really about getting in touch and being aware of what is, what are the voices saying? Like, what are the, what are the stones that you need to turn or want to turn, to remove the barriers or remove the fears? Because you know, my, my two, I picked two big fears. One was when I'm sick, the other is will I be able to have enough energy to chase my kids? And honestly, guys, it was supposed to be one kid. Cause then the next goal was to get that ball going, bounce it, bounce it, get used to it. Okay. Let's adopt a kid about the same age, bounce it, bounce it, bounce it. Okay. Then we can add to, so this way I'd have my biology experiment, but then I would also be one that would choose to adopt. It's just, I ended up getting twins and then that changed the game. I guess I don't need all that because I can't afford more than two do it keeps me running.

Linda: 46:10

Wow. That's amazing though. I'm so happy that that worked out. Wow. Wow. So, um, tell us a little bit about, you know, how you are coaching and your community of SMC and your mission regarding the census. Oh, this is the good stuff

Lori: 46:32

I went to school for this I'm an educated professional coach, man. I'm a single mother by choice. So guess what I want to do? I want to change the world. So, um, my initial mission, like started out is, you know, I've had a really blessed journey as a single mom by choice and, um, and become a part of multiple social networking groups where, uh, we congregate and have conversations. People are sharing their challenges and things that they're going through. And, and I, and I witnessed a lot of women struggling and, and it broke my heart to see that some of them actually had so much pain that they actually regretted their choices. And so that's a very real thing, ladies. I feel like I didn't have that same experience because I did all this, you know, basic strategizing, like I made, I wanted, I thought of what kind of mother I wanted to be. And I understood what energy it was going to take for me and focus to be able to honor what, how I wanted to show up. So that was where I shifted my life to create space for. It is like closing the store was a big choice. I mean, I couldn't be the kind of mom I wanted to be and be running an, operating a family of employees and be able to show up for my children in the same way. And people used to tell, Oh, you can bring your baby to work. People do it all the time. And I'm like, Oh yeah, around all those chemicals and shit and all those germs on the carpet that all these people are attracted into my store. They'll know, that's just not practical. I'm not going to be in the mall. So, um, Because I created strategies. I've lived my life with like incredible joy all the way through gratitude lenses totally on, um, you have your ass hat moments as a mom, like any, any mom would, but then, you know, I learned to like, make sure I count up on my rest and you gotta make sure you put food in your Bibles so that you can keep it. Sure. So, yeah. Where was I leading with that one? Um, I'm still laughing

Linda: 48:31

at ass hat, so

Lori: 48:34

it's, it's my inner dialogue. And then the kids know the mom hat. Like, you know, I literally say, look, you got choices, kids. I asked you nicely twice. Three ring rule there, third time mom hat comes on. So you get to choose. Do you want the nice approach or the mom hat approach? Cause you know what? I have no problem wearing either one. I don't like to wear the mom hat. I don'tlike the tone of voice, it's not who I am. But if this is what it takes in this moment, it's a tool I'm gonna use it. Cause we gotta get this shit done. So yeah. Oh, I am an SMC coach. That's right. So I'm with it because when I saw those, uh, those women struggling in, in coming through the lenses of having a regret, I kept envisioning like what's the play out and how they're showing up as a mother and how is that on the receiving end with the children. And, um, and that broke my heart because you know, kids are going to be what they are in their developmental stages and sometimes they're going to be assets and we just kind of like find our way through that so that we don't raise as hats. And um, cause we don't want that. Right. Right. Right. So I thought that there was this great need. I need to serve our community. And then when Covid hit, honestly, that helped me see what it's like to live some pretty catabolic, energy, uh, frequencies. And I was catching myself, you know, with my ass hat on too much ladies and I was not using it in the three ring rule. I was just an ass hat. And so I had to really unpack what was going on. Um, I had coaching skills at the time. And so it was like really awesome to, to, up to up my level and acknowledge that it had nothing to do with my children or all, for me, it happened to be financial scarcity. You know, I'm self employed, shifting careers. I go from luxury to coaching and, you know, and so I had to come up with a strategy, like, okay, that's, what's really going on. I need to address my financial scarcity and come up with a game plan to fill that bucket. And so I was able to address what I needed and then I did it and then I was like, okay, cool. Now I'm in an emotional rut because I've been stuck in this dryer cycle and fun is really important to me. So let's design something that will bring fun back into me and into this house and let's bring it into other people. And that helped pull me. And then after that I knew my place was with SMCs because I could actually really, truly relate to some of those really deep, dark thoughts, which I never had. So it was good job

Linda: 51:10

coach on the self coaching. Yeah. Yeah. And can you tell us, um, you've told me before, but the dryer cycle.

Lori: 51:18

Illustrate that concept for us. You're still good. No, that, okay. Well, so what's the jarring. Oh wait, no, we have to wait. Let's not touch it because no one talks about the bigger mission for the SNCs. Okay. So I'm coaching single moms by choice. I've literally successfully taken two women that at the beginning of the relationship, they carried this rate weight of, of regrets, but they're still in the game. You can't take the kids back and I've taken them from that kind of mindset to being well on their way. To living their lives with joy and grace. I mean, we still are turning rocks because there's some rocks to turn as we go on our journey and I'm just there as their spotter to help bring awareness. And then also to really champion them or the things that they're doing that are amazing and beautiful that make them the perfect mom. And part of the perfection is the imperfection you're finding what's going on in you that you want to change. Well, that means that you're shifting the trajectory of your children's experience as well, because without that awareness, without wanting to shift will then to a certain degree, we're passing it on. Right? So we're kind of doing it for everyone. I mean, my SNC coaching is really about the family it's that it starts with the mother and redefining motherhood in many different ways through SNC lenses, which is pretty fantastic. And that leads me to understanding a lot of the hurdles that, that SNC go through. Like, honestly, there's a surprising amount of biases out there. There are people with spiritual biases, like what I've done with dancing the line, if not breaking the line in, uh, like organized Christianity, it's not accepted through all of Christianity for an example, you know, what I've done is kind of sacrilege. So people can place the judgments on that. Uh, the other is like, I almost died when I birthed my kids. I had a great birth and then afterwards I had preeclampsia and they gave me the wrong medication. And so, you know, I couldn't breathe. There was a weight on my chest. Every time I complained. They just glazed over me. They just kept glazing over me. I was getting a doctor there's coming in. Oh, you're breathing fine. See you later alligator. And by the end of two days, like I had a nervous breakdown because I couldn't breathe. And when I found out was a group of nurses come in with a doctor and they're like, poor you like, we understand that you're having what you're having is anxiety attacks for being a single mother with twins without, without a father. So of course you're having anxiety attacks and I'm like, I'm like, I paid for this to happen. I want this. You're not listening to me. I can't

Linda: 54:03

breathe wild. No, that they let their biases get in. The way of your

Lori: 54:10

care were assumptions like that. Wasn't a Christian bias. That was a bunch of nurses, gossiping in the hallway about the dynamics of the moms in the room. And they made a decision that I was having anxiety attacks and ignoring anxiety attacks is actually another choice. But, uh, yeah, the next day I, they drugged me up cause I went off painkillers really fast. I didn't need them or I dunno, one of those weirdos. And I was like, whatever, I can process this. And uh, and I said, fine. I accepted the drugs and the stupid oxygen that they told me would do nothing that they did make me feel better about myself. I don't know. I did that. next morning I had rested enough to open up a can of whoop ass, got another set of doctors. They were still condescending to me. And then they finally said, well, you know, we can take an x-ray of your lungs. If you, if it'll make you feel better, like you think. Yeah. And then they come running and they're really, really sorry. Cause I almost went to the ICU and then they did this emergency stuff to get the fluid off my lungs and the medication they gave me is the reason why it was there. So yeah, there are lots of examples. Just last week, there was an SMC that she had to go to social services, to get some support with food because you know, COVID that a job, single mom she's got her kids. They wouldn't give her the benefit because she wouldn't, she couldn't fill out the father's side. Literally. She was like, there is no father. I did this on my own. Here's a receipt. I spent$500 on sperm and I went and I got pregnant. So there's no biological father. They actually didn't serve her. So like my big game changer is I want SMC to be a household acronym, knowing that single mothers by choice is another version of a normal family. And that the more we normalize it, it's actually going to attract other women with the inner voice of wanting to have children, but not knowing who to talk to, how to reach out and SMC becomes this point term. They can literally Google it and be networked automatically. When I started trying, I didn't have SNC under my belt. I was like, what do I call myself? Right. And when I came across it, I'm like, Oh my God, I'm a single mother by choice. We chose this. It was so perfect and so powerful. And so underused and, um, So it'll open up doors for women considering becoming a choice, mom. By like getting involved in a big way, I want to be a systems level changer, which is what I learned. The title is where we're changing the boxes on the medical form on the box. That's what we're talking about in, in, in human, like health and human resources and social services and, and, and with doctors, so that, they don't look at us with pity. Cause let me tell you there's examples. Like one day, a little kid from, childcare's asking me, why is there not a father in the family? And the mother is like, don't ask that question. Don't ask that question. And I'm like, Hey, I get it. You're trying to be sensitive. I'm not sensitive to this. It's like, let me educate you by talking to your child. And I literally addressed it with, Hey, that's a legit question. That kid is asking a legit question. I'm ready to answer it. And I just explained there's different kinds of families out there. Sometimes there's a mom and a dad. Sometimes there's two moms. Sometimes there's two dads. Sometimes there's two dads and a mom because you get a divorce hearing, come in, all different shapes and sizes. We just happen to be one where there's just a mom

Linda: 57:42

and.

Lori: 57:43

To normalize it

Linda: 57:44

and normalize it. I love that the world needs you and this movement. I mean, yeah, no seriously though. I, I just think it's a new day and I like your stance on it, which is to say, it's not about like being offended to be asked it's educating. Right. And being like completely open to that possibility to show the world that there is this spectrum of motherhood and how you're doing it is perfectly

Lori: 58:10

normal. Yeah. Well, and it's okay. And it's fine. And the hard part is for single moms by choice, a lot of us do have our own inner triggers that are like, they're only natural, but you know, we're winging it now as parents and then these triggers hit and it's like, why not minimize that a thing that's going to poke that button? Like the button that says. Like, Oh my God. You know, I didn't provide a father for my children. And this belief that you have to have a father, in the picture or pushing the button up, like I couldn't make a relationship work and therefore, and doing it all on my own. There's all kinds of buttons that trigger us at any given point in time. And we all have unique ones. And, I live in California where it's. Not only more easily accepted, but you, you have a greater population of people that are open to, very types of families. This might be new for them too, but they can wrap their head around it and you can, you can lead them and support them with comfort, you know, by like, Hey, it's just another version of family, man. But until we get that out there and really become a part of the demographic, become a part of the census so that we can be broken down into this category. Cause a lot of articles that come out that are written by doctors and scientists and universities, if you look up loneliness and single parents, the articles are horrifying and depressing and just not true, they're just not true. They're lumping all single parents together. And there's different demographics and different situations. And, and they're literally saying things like, kids that are raised in single parent homes are less successful in life that they're lacking the tools and it's like, you know what? take you down. I'm a presence that empowers by creating our own set of poles, our own set of petitions, our own set of things that we're going to be. Game-changing things to create space so that we can be looked at and viewed as just another version of family. We're not poor me, poor me that I have twins. I love this. Yeah,

Linda: 1:00:27

that's it that's fricking empowered all day long. Um, yeah, I know. It sounds like you have to combat that negative PR and, bolster that community and just the general understanding that that is a completely legitimate stance. You know, I think I love the systems changing level that you're, that you're looking for though. That's, that's fricking bad-ass

Lori: 1:00:50

and I'm looking forward to really, I mean, I'm not going to be able to do it alone. So by building a community of SMCs with deeper relationships. I mean, I have a vision of having like four in-person retreats a year where, there's a lot of empowerment and a lot of learning things that'll be happening and simultaneously with our, in our relaxation. Cause yes, we will have nannies and dieticians that will teach us how to cook and we will be eating somebody else's cooking and it'll be more, uh, but we're also gonna have this bigger mission. That's a piece of it where, it's going to take a village to make this movements. And um, so I just evidently am going to be a village

Linda: 1:01:32

Yeah, that's a, that's a great vision of the future. And, you know, I can imagine how grateful these SMCs will be for those retreats. It's just a pro mother stance anyway. Like to have that shared sense of like, Nope, we're all doing this for going on vacation. Our kids are looked after and I get to enjoy the pool boy. You know, it's like, how amazing is that?

Lori: 1:01:54

Yeah, probably it's all about a bag of chips. Maybe.

Linda: 1:02:00

Thank you so much for really everything. I mean, this is, um, It's such an empowering conversation and, seeing you enjoy the fruits of your labor. And again, I love your sense of humor. You know, it's not, it's not easy peasy all the time. We know that and everything you're doing to just build a supportive community for SMCs and letting women know, letting the world know that this is a totally legitimate choice towards motherhood is really like such powerful work. And we're really grateful to have you

Lori: 1:02:34

thank you so much. I really appreciate it. And you know what, ladies, if you look around, there's a larger and larger number every day, they're around you, they may or may not speak about it, but they are getting to a place where we're starting to have our individual voices and collectively we can actually, you know, rock this. I really, I really believe that we're like, right. At the time, the perfect time for us to become a legit demographic of women that will empower other women to be able to have that power of choice for themselves. So thank you very much, Linda, for having me on and letting you share like crazy pirate ship story. Yes.

Linda: 1:03:16

And so in terms of creating space for motherhood, do you have any parting words for our audience? Oh, goodness. I know we covered

Lori: 1:03:25

a lot. I think with creating space, it really, I mean, I said it a little bit earlier in the show is really it's about if this is something that you're considering and that you want, um, you know, call me or call Linda. I'd love to have a conversation around that, for sure. Uh, and help you get a three 60 view from your lenses in your perspective, because really you're on your unique path and the kinds of things that might be concerns for you might be similar to others, or they might be really, truly unique to you, but it's really important to create the space for yourself to acknowledge what are the voices saying in your head that's holding you back and really dig deeper into like how true is it? You know, and get curious and talk to other women that are parents in their midlife years, even the ones that have, have chosen the marriage routes, you know, with the clock ticking, get their perspective on what does that look like? Because I talked to those ladies too, and, um, and just see what you can do to address those fears. Like those will be the strategies that you can build to set yourself up for success. And, um, yeah, that's it right there. It's like, just be honest with what the voices are saying and see what you can do about it because you're in control, not the mind, the mind is the tool and it likes to monkey with you and feel important, but really at the end of the day, you're in charge and you can tell it to shut up or thank you for your information. Let's just work on it and then move forward.

Linda: 1:04:59

Thank you. Yeah. And just put a bow on it. I love it. Yeah. Tell it, tell the fears to shut up. No, but fears are the way, right? Like, you know, those obstacles, thoughts like that, those literally can help create that pathway. And that's what I, what I heard you say in that. So yes. Yes, ladies.

Lori: 1:05:20

That's right. Use your fear to your advantage. Sounds crazy, but it's awesome. And then you just show how brave you are and you are brave. Yup.

Linda: 1:05:30

Yeah. Join our pirate brigade. Uh, all right, well thank you, Lori. And we will talk to you again soon.

Lori: 1:05:41

All right. Fantastic. I'm looking forward to it, Linda. Thank you so much again, and thank you everyone in the audience for, uh, giving us some time to listen to what we have to say. We'll see you soon.